[Darktable-users] Oversaturated colors opening Olympus E-PL3 raw

[Michele B]

Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta
colors like in the examples available here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0

The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch, like these two:

http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF

Thank you!

[David Vincent-Jones]

Post by Michele B
Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF
Thank you!

Please post a typical raw file along with your xmp file for us to take a look.

David

[Michele B]

Thank you David. Here you'll find what you asked:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0

There are the ORF raw file, OOC jpeg and xmp file.
The problem is easily visible on the rider's helmet (blue) and in the
front of the bike (magenta).
I have other examples like this. Like I said, the same happens with
other raw files coming from other Olympus cameras. Maybe it's my
fault, but if it's so, I need to understand where I'm wrong.

Post by David Vincent-Jones

Post by Michele B
Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF
Thank you!

Please post a typical raw file along with your xmp file for us to take a look.
David
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[Remy Pascal]

same problem here, the Magenta are far too strong. I have a sistematic
correction applied with the Color zones modules, dropping the magenta
saturation and moving it a bit toward the orange.
I am on holidays just now, so I don't have access to my DT machine just
now, so I can't give you the values or xmp files. It is not perfect, but
the problem is less obvious.

I found myself quite often obliged to drop a bit the green in the white
balance module.

Aditionnaly, as you also have an apl3, did you manage to ccreate a profile
for the Noise profiled module? I did some test shots, but with poor results

Post by Michele B
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
There are the ORF raw file, OOC jpeg and xmp file.
The problem is easily visible on the rider's helmet (blue) and in the
front of the bike (magenta).
I have other examples like this. Like I said, the same happens with
other raw files coming from other Olympus cameras. Maybe it's my
fault, but if it's so, I need to understand where I'm wrong.

Post by David Vincent-Jones

Post by Michele B
Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0

Post by David Vincent-Jones

Post by Michele B
The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF
Thank you!

Please post a typical raw file along with your xmp file for us to take a

look.

Post by David Vincent-Jones
David

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[Michele B]

For a while I used color zones module too to desaturate magenta and
change its hue toward orange. But I don't think it's the right way too
go because it's not only a matter of saturation: some pixels in the
problematic colors are ultra bright and in these zones any detail it's
lost, like if it were overexposed.
The workaround I've found, setting input profile to linear Rec2020
RGB, work only at the cost of losing contrast and saturation.

About profiled denoise: I use a profile which works quite good, let me
know if you want to try it. The only downside it's that you need to
compile DT from sources because to include denoise profile you need to
edit "noiseprofile.h" file. It's not a difficult task, in the section
"installation" of DT site it's explained clearly how to do it.

Post by Remy Pascal
same problem here, the Magenta are far too strong. I have a sistematic
correction applied with the Color zones modules, dropping the magenta
saturation and moving it a bit toward the orange.
I am on holidays just now, so I don't have access to my DT machine just now,
so I can't give you the values or xmp files. It is not perfect, but the
problem is less obvious.
I found myself quite often obliged to drop a bit the green in the white
balance module.
Aditionnaly, as you also have an apl3, did you manage to ccreate a profile
for the Noise profiled module? I did some test shots, but with poor results

Post by Michele B
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
There are the ORF raw file, OOC jpeg and xmp file.
The problem is easily visible on the rider's helmet (blue) and in the
front of the bike (magenta).
I have other examples like this. Like I said, the same happens with
other raw files coming from other Olympus cameras. Maybe it's my
fault, but if it's so, I need to understand where I'm wrong.
2015-01-02 1:07 GMT+01:00 David Vincent-Jones

Post by David Vincent-Jones

Post by Michele B
Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF
Thank you!

Please post a typical raw file along with your xmp file for us to take a look.
David
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Michele
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[Steven Fosdick]

Post by Michele B
For a while I used color zones module too to desaturate magenta and
change its hue toward orange. But I don't think it's the right way too
go because it's not only a matter of saturation: some pixels in the
problematic colors are ultra bright and in these zones any detail it's
lost, like if it were overexposed.
The workaround I've found, setting input profile to linear Rec2020
RGB, work only at the cost of losing contrast and saturation.

If, as I suspect, the problem is due to an inaccurate input colour profile
for that camera, another reason not work around by correcting with other
tools is that when the colour profile is fixed, if you return to those
images, they will be odd and you would have to undo the corrections, though
that may be as simple as turning some modules off in the history stack.

If you are keen to get some images processed before the colour profile is
fixed then working from the linear profile and then increasing saturation
and contrast would seem a better way to go. At least this would be stable
and, once you have worked out how much saturation and contrast to add you
can always copy it to other images at least as a starting point.

[Steven Fosdick]

Post by Michele B
Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF
Thank you!
--
Michele
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[Steven Fosdick]

If the problem exists before you have made any adjustments to the image
and, given that the problem is resolved by choosing a different input
colour profile, I wonder if this is caused by an inaccurate input colour
profile for that camera.

There are a couple of articles that deal with this. There is the general
article on adding support for a new camera (
http://www.darktable.org/2012/10/whats-involved-with-adding-support-for-new-cameras/)
and an article that deals specifically with colour profiles (
https://encrypted.pcode.nl/blog/2010/06/28/darktable-camera-color-profiling/
).

I did have a go with Pascal's instructions (2nd article above) and it does
seem very sensitive to how the target is lit.

Post by Michele B
Hi all. I'm writing here because I haven't found a solution to my
problem. Maybe someone will help me understand something more.
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable, the
image shows oversaturated artifacts, especially on blue and magenta
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0
The only way I've found to avoid this problem is selecting linear
Rec2020RGB instead of standard color matrix in "input color profile"
module, but I don't know why. In this way colors looks more natural,
even if less saturated than the OOC jpeg.
The same problem exist using other Olympus raw samples taken from
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EPL5.ORF
http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EM1.ORF
Thank you!
--
Michele
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[Michele B]

If the problem exists before you have made any adjustments to the image and,
given that the problem is resolved by choosing a different input colour
profile, I wonder if this is caused by an inaccurate input colour profile
for that camera.
There are a couple of articles that deal with this. There is the general
article on adding support for a new camera
(http://www.darktable.org/2012/10/whats-involved-with-adding-support-for-new-cameras/)
and an article that deals specifically with colour profiles
(https://encrypted.pcode.nl/blog/2010/06/28/darktable-camera-color-profiling/).
I did have a go with Pascal's instructions (2nd article above) and it does
seem very sensitive to how the target is lit.

Thank you, I know these articles but before buying a target to try to
calibrate my camera, I needed to know from people more trained than me
at using DT if my guesses were right. Now you gave me a confirmation.
Anyway, it could be useful to correct the problem upstream (if there
is any real problem) in order to allow many Olympus cam owners (which
are quite widespread) to use this wonderful software. At least could
be useful to collect icc profiles made from users in order to fix
these problems one at time.

[Bernhard]

I'm using a E-P3 along with my Nikons and there are about 700 images in
the collection til now from that camera.
I didn't notice such a problem til now - are there different profiles
for E-P3 and E-PL3?

Post by Michele B
Anyway, it could be useful to correct the problem upstream (if there
is any real problem) in order to allow many Olympus cam owners (which
are quite widespread) to use this wonderful software.

[Michele B]

[...] I didn't notice such a problem til now - are there different profiles for
E-P3 and E-PL3?

Really puzzling: I've just tried a RAW sample coming from a Olympus
E-P2 (http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EP2.ORF). In this
picture there is a girl with red pants: colors are ok using "standard
color matrix", while fluorescent magenta arise using "linear Rec2020
RGB"... that's the opposite than what happens with my E-PL3!
Maybe you could send a raw sample to http://rawsamples.ch or share it
to me. If you want one of my raw, you can download it here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0

[Bernhard]

Post by Michele B

[...] I didn't notice such a problem til now - are there different profiles for
E-P3 and E-PL3?

Really puzzling: I've just tried a RAW sample coming from a Olympus
E-P2 (http://rawsamples.ch/raws/olympus/RAW_OLYMPUS_EP2.ORF). In this
picture there is a girl with red pants: colors are ok using "standard
color matrix", while fluorescent magenta arise using "linear Rec2020
RGB"... that's the opposite than what happens with my E-PL3!
Maybe you could send a raw sample to http://rawsamples.ch or share it
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzMPhxj4q7BJT3VWQTdRb1ZDYTg&authuser=0

You may check
http://www.bilddateien.de/transfer/files/OL130246.ORF
http://www.bilddateien.de/transfer/files/OL130072.ORF

[Michele B]

Post by Bernhard
You may check
http://www.bilddateien.de/transfer/files/OL130246.ORF
http://www.bilddateien.de/transfer/files/OL130072.ORF

Both of them give me the problem. In OL130246 I see the window its
purple, but I suppose it was red. In OL130072 the blue plastic show
some artifacts...

[Bernhard]

Post by Michele B

Post by Bernhard
You may check
http://www.bilddateien.de/transfer/files/OL130246.ORF
http://www.bilddateien.de/transfer/files/OL130072.ORF

Both of them give me the problem. In OL130246 I see the window its
purple, but I suppose it was red. In OL130072 the blue plastic show
some artifacts...

In reality the windows and also the colors of the sign were indeed red
but with a somewhat "brownisch cast". So the image I see on my screen is
close to reality.
And in the other picture I don't see artifacts. Reality is that these
cameras are noisy compared to full framers like the D700 which gives an
uneven surface on those plastic objects. Using the other input profile
doesn't change that, also using standard profile and desaturating with
the appropriate module doesn't change that either.
Switching to profiled denoise eliminates all this "artifacts" - at least
those that I can see at 100 and even 200% in darkroom (but I don't like
this as it causes me to loose too many fine details in most images).
What version of dt do you use?
I'm on Pascal's 1.6.1 on LinuxMint.

[Michele B]

Post by Bernhard
[...]
Switching to profiled denoise eliminates all this "artifacts" - at least
those that I can see at 100 and even 200% in darkroom (but I don't like this
as it causes me to loose too many fine details in most images).
What version of dt do you use?
I'm on Pascal's 1.6.1 on LinuxMint.

That's not noise, these are pixel so much saturated that the detail in
that part of image get lost. Noise goes away turning on profiled
denoise like you said.
I'm using DT 1.6.0 built from sources on Ubuntu 14.04.
Thank you for your help!

[Steven Fosdick]

Post by Bernhard
I'm using a E-P3 along with my Nikons and there are about 700 images in
the collection til now from that camera.
I didn't notice such a problem til now - are there different profiles for
E-P3 and E-PL3?

According to the source code darktable uses the same Adobe-derived input
colour profile for the E-P3 and the E-PL3. Is that what you would expect?
I don't know enough about these cameras to say. If they have been assumed
to be the same but are actually different perhaps this is the problem?

[Peter Mc Donough]

Hi all. I'm writing here because ...[when]
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable ... [the] image shows oversaturated artifacts...

You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance.
The software is free and runs in Windows and with Wine in Linux.

cu
Peter

[Pedro Côrte-Real]

Post by Peter Mc Donough
You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance.
The software is free and runs in Windows and with Wine in Linux.

As a general rule we don't recommend doing DNG conversion as all sorts
of metadata can be lost. If there's a bug in a specific camera please
file a bug report with an attached sample.

Cheers,

Pedro

[Peter Mc Donough]

Post by Pedro Côrte-Real

You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance. ...

As a general rule we don't recommend doing DNG conversion as all sorts
of metadata can be lost. ...

It would be interesting to know whether metadata is unpredictably lost
when RAWs are converted with DNG or whether the loss relates only to
certain RAW formats?

DNG, despite being proprietary code from Adobe, seem to offer a standard
format and can be used without fees, that I read in Adobe's license.
And I like standards as well as open source.

cu
Peter

[Bernhard]

Post by Peter Mc Donough

Post by Pedro Côrte-Real
As a general rule we don't recommend doing DNG conversion as all
sorts of metadata can be lost. ...

It would be interesting to know whether metadata is unpredictably lost
when RAWs are converted with DNG or whether the loss relates only to
certain RAW formats?

In my opinion the problem is that a "unknown" - that means "reverse
engineered" format (proprietary RAW) is beeing converted to an open
format (DNG).
The quality of this conversion depends on the degree of successful
reengineering.
Proprietary RAW formats may include/contain proprietary metatags ...

Post by Peter Mc Donough
DNG, despite being proprietary code from Adobe, seem to offer a standard
format and can be used without fees, that I read in Adobe's license.
And I like standards as well as open source.

Me also, but only right from the starting point.
E. g. a college of mine owns a Pentax camera and this one gives you the
choice to save in .pef or .dng
In that case I would use .dng - at least would test it extensively.

Bernhard

[Pedro Côrte-Real]

Post by Bernhard
In my opinion the problem is that a "unknown" - that means "reverse
engineered" format (proprietary RAW) is beeing converted to an open
format (DNG).
The quality of this conversion depends on the degree of successful
reengineering.
Proprietary RAW formats may include/contain proprietary metatags ...

This is exactly right.

Post by Bernhard

Post by Peter Mc Donough
And I like standards as well as open source.

Me also, but only right from the starting point.
E. g. a college of mine owns a Pentax camera and this one gives you the
choice to save in .pef or .dng
In that case I would use .dng - at least would test it extensively.

Precisely. Our advice is "don't convert your files to DNG but if your
camera suports DNG format itself use it".

Btw, the issue here has nothing to do with DNG vs ORF, it's most
likely just a bug. The DNG conversion just makes darktable treat the
camera differently hiding the bug.

Has someone actually submitted a bug report with an example case?

Cheers,

Pedro

[Michele B]

Post by Pedro Côrte-Real
[...]
Precisely. Our advice is "don't convert your files to DNG but if your
camera suports DNG format itself use it".
Btw, the issue here has nothing to do with DNG vs ORF, it's most
likely just a bug. The DNG conversion just makes darktable treat the
camera differently hiding the bug.
Has someone actually submitted a bug report with an example case?

Importing to DT a DNG converted from a ORF with Adobe DNG Converter
the problem is still there. I've worked around the problem using a icc
input color profile for my E-PL3 (borrowed from Adobe DNG Converter).

I'm not sure if it's a bug, but I can submit a bug report if you think
it worth reporting it.

[Pedro Côrte-Real]

Post by Michele B
Importing to DT a DNG converted from a ORF with Adobe DNG Converter
the problem is still there. I've worked around the problem using a icc
input color profile for my E-PL3 (borrowed from Adobe DNG Converter).
I'm not sure if it's a bug, but I can submit a bug report if you think
it worth reporting it.

Please do. Colors should be reasonable without any fiddling so it's
most likely a bug.

Cheers,

Pedro

[Michele B]

Post by Pedro Côrte-Real
Please do. Colors should be reasonable without any fiddling so it's
most likely a bug.
Cheers,
Pedro

I opened a bug report, but it turned out that the issue was my "fault".
The bug report is available here: http://www.darktable.org/redmine/issues/10267

Pascal de Bruijn, the master of color in DT develop team, help me
understand these things:
The first problem was that my monitor calibration was wrong, setting
my monitor profile to sRGB solved the shifting toward magenta.
The second problem was the artifacts: the solution has been setting
AMaZE as demosaicing algorithm with two or more passes of color
smoothing.
Refer to the bug report for details.
Thank you all for the help!

[Matthieu Moy]

Post by Peter Mc Donough

Hi all. I'm writing here because ...[when]
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable ... [the] image shows oversaturated artifacts...

You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance.
The software is free and runs in Windows and with Wine in Linux.

There's also a free (as in free speach, not just as in free beer)
DNGConverter for Linux. On Debian, it's part of kipi-plugins.

But I'm not sure this will solve the colors problem: you'll still have
to apply the input color profile and basecurve for the camera.

[Peter Mc Donough]

Post by Matthieu Moy

Hi all. I'm writing here because ...[when]
Importing a raw image shoot with my Olympus E-PL3 in Darktable ... [the] image shows oversaturated artifacts...

You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance. ...

There's also a free (as in free speach, not just as in free beer)
DNGConverter for Linux. ...
But I'm not sure this will solve the colors problem ...

Well, it could be a test whether the oversaturation is because of the
RAW converter or the camera. What are the results of a conversion with
the original Olympus software?

cu
Peter

[Michele B]

2015-01-02 14:20 GMT+01:00 Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-***@gmx.net>:
[...]

Post by Peter Mc Donough
You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance.

[...]

You gave me a good hint! I downloaded Adobe DNG Converter and saw that
it carry inside a bunch of dcp profile for many cameras. Among others,
there are some profiles for the E-PL3. I converted the dcp profiles in
icc profiles using dcp2icc (free software) and placed the obtained icc
profiles in .config/darktable/color/in. Selecting one of these
profiles the image looks a little flat, but colors are closer to
reality.

[Peter Mc Donough]

Post by Michele B
[...]

Post by Peter Mc Donough
You could give Adobe's DNGConverter a chance.

[...]
You gave me a good hint! I downloaded Adobe DNG Converter and saw that
it carry inside a bunch of dcp profile for many cameras. Among others,
there are some profiles for the E-PL3. I converted the dcp profiles in
icc profiles using dcp2icc (free software) and placed the obtained icc
profiles in .config/darktable/color/in. Selecting one of these
profiles the image looks a little flat, but colors are closer to
reality.

A good idea for a test. For system wide experiments it might be better
placed in (with opensuse)
/usr/share/darktable/color/in

cu
Peter